Dangerous Merckx?

The burn marks at the bottom bracket look pretty nuts. Could potentially go cheap but I reckon steer clear from this one. He’s applied heat to the most critical part of the frame and has no doubt caused some annealing/ phase change in the steel around this area and may have also affected the brazing. In short: dangerous.


It’s fine. That’s pretty minor and localised paint damage. I’d be more concerned about corrosion than heat damage.

Just needs a quick inspection of lug shorelines after blasting and a repaint.

Filler melts ~450C, steel anneals ~700C.

In short: Not dangerous, tall riders bid with confidence.

that wasn’t an attempt to snare it for yourself, was it, mr shue?

No. I was genuinely concerned that the seller would actually put this put for auction. It’s not just a simple matter of looking at melting temperatures and annealing points because quite simply: you don’t know what type of flame source was used and therefore can’t say how hot the flame was. You also don’t know how long it was applied for or how frequently. If there were any minute cracks at the bottom bracket junction, the application (and reapplications) of heat would severely affect the fatigue life of the bottom bracket unit.

I just think it’s really irresponsible to chuck up a frame like that without a detailed description of its history and insinuate that it’s good to go.

But whatever, reward this bastard for his unprofessionalism in both selling and working with the frame if you’re a sucker for cheap prices. Just make sure you take it to a frame builder to get it checked out before you ride it.

There’s still paint on the extermities of the BB lugs so i’d doubt it got anywhere near hot enough for long enough to melt the filler.

buying second hand is always going to be a bit of a lottery at least this seller told us the BB was heated and showed some evidence so we can make up our own minds (personally I’d hit it).

I re-brazed the monostay on my werkhoven as there was a small crack due to previous owners using too small a seat post. I got it hot enough to not only melt filler but add a substantial fillet of the stuff. There was aready a crack there and over a year later it’s still fine.

Yeah what he said. The frame is dangerous. you should definitely not bid on this! You could die! and it is too small/ big for all of you.

When I saw this frame I thought someone must have used it as a fire poker! :lol:

Looks fine to me :wink:

In any case I blame Eddy. He did good in having Ugo de Rosa set up his factory and production (in 1980 ?) but he shouldn’t have followed into using bottom brackets with Italian threads. That’s why that fixed cup was jammed tight (or possibly even glued). Italian threaded fixed cups are right (wrong !!!) threaded as Sheldon says :smiley:

By the way it’s a mid 80’s frame. Older style decal/logo font but with later sloping fork crown and seat stay cap panto. It’s nice, and in my opinion that heat was nowhere hot enough to melt the brass brazing and the investment cast BB shell can take a lots of heat. The fact that the seller represents it as is it commendable … I would however insist on having the BB shell refaced and the threads chased properly at the sellers expense if they haven’t done so already to ensure that there’s no issues or remnants of the fixed cup problem.

Again, great images Spirito!

And yes Italian bottom brackets- you really have to tighten the f**kers up!!

I just want to make it clear first up that I’m not trying to debate. I just want to make it clear the ambiguity of the whole situation and that you can’t make a firm judgement on anything based on a couple of pics. So here are some points:

  1. You don’t know the heat source and heat history so you can’t make a firm decision on how hot the bottom bracket got. Yes, you can look at the burnt paint and make an inference; but you still can’t be definitive.

  2. The whole investment lug bottom bracket idea taking the heat… If it heats up, it’s gonna wanna get rid of that heat some how. It can do this in three ways: conduction, convection and radiation. Of these three ways, the brazing will see some of the heat conducted to it… so what? So it’s going to heat up.

  3. How much is it going to heat up? I dunno. Depends on how much heat you put in

  4. How much heat did you put in? That’s the whole point of this thread.

He’s right you know, the heat may have a chequered past, might have done jail time. or touched children

Stay away from heat kids.

a pair of those mercx overalls would be rad

I am! :lol:

You can make a very good call from the paint condition though.

I’ve done a post fire investigation on a crane truss which saw more heat for a longer period and the surface condition made this look immaculate. Hardness testing confirmed no annealing of the steel had taken place.

So what if the brazing heats up. It’s a simple solid solution alloy, it won’t phase change on you. Unless you melt it and cause it to leave the joint it’s of no concern.

It’d be about your size wouldn’t it dafrog? Hit it.

Test, inspect, then repaint and use. Simple really.

I think that’s about as far as I’d call it.

I’ll save you the argument :wink:

Yes, I can. Based on the pics I’ve seen enough to make a call and I did.


$355… not dirt cheap. Did anyone here get it?