Relative to what? Anything objective? How about if they wanted to buy some gatorskins, a chinese factory worker would have to work a week, and here maybe half a day.
Look up the word exploitation. Basically 3rd world workers are being exploited due to their circumstance. Companies use their power to seek the most desperate to do their work.
Microsoft Slave Labour Claims
States along the lines that workers were getting paid 65cents an hour to make iPads… so maybe my estimate of the time it would take one to accumulate enough money to buy some gatorskins was an underestimation. If you are happy to pay someone 65cents an hour, and then profit from their labor, and have this mindset ‘oh they should be happy that they are getting work’. Then in my opinion you are a fuckwit and businesses who use such practices are assholes.
How about knog give us some info on how much their chinese laborers get paid, and the conditions they work in. Or does no one give a shit and remain happy as long as they give free backpacks and lights out to the next sprinting in the drains winner.
Fair question … just in case someone wants to pour back some of their hard earned savings from buying cheap overseas produced products, keep the bicycle theme going, and help on a micro level you can sponsor a bike here (Yes, I have) https://www.childfund.org.au/gifts or maybe here http://www.bicyclesforhumanity.com/ (haven’t given anything to bicycles for humanity but like their stories).
This is the common misconception about sweatshops. The idea that not buying the product actually does more harm, and “at least they’ve got jobs.” The thing is, most sweatshop labour exists because of pressure from first-world capitalist powerhouses on third world nations. Through political and aid pressure they’re ‘encouraged’ to create free-trade zones and increasingly push workers off the land and into the cities. This creates a massive workforce who face a desperate decision of ‘work or die’, more often than not they’re working to support families in rural areas that have been decimated by various other imposed practices such as cash crops.
At the end of the day, the western world is responsible for the conditions, and they’re only possible through our continued support and ongoing pressure from first world governments.
Sekt, I meant it as a separate question… how does buying products from places outside of Asia support Asia’s economic development. But I concede that the two issues are intertwined.
China maintains a ‘less than free float value’ RMB by buying trillions of US dollar debt. This prevents the appreciation of the RMB, creating a larger east/west price gap than would otherwise exist. It’s not black and white, you can’t just blame western corporations.
Furthermore, this management of their exchange rate has brought tremendous wealth to China and other parts of Asia by supporting manufacturing driven by strong export demand. There are more millionaires in China than in the UK. China has is ranked 4th globally in terms of number of millionaires.
Lets just say everyone in the world boycotted all Asian manufactured items. Do you think they would be better off? (Well, maybe we’d all be better off if we went back to subsistence farming and bartering - but that ain’t gonna happen y’all).
DXS - So you are telling me that you don’t own a PC or a Mac? Then how the hell are you posting this? From your iPhone? Oh wait, thats an Apple product as well.
Form the sounds of you not being a ‘fuckwit’ - You must live in a tree out in the bush or something living of the land. Wait, you obviously ride a bike yeah? You claim to tell me every single part on your bike is free from cheap asian labour?
When you say ‘exploitation’ - are you comparing it with the work/pay standards in Australia? I guess you could do that if every country in the world has the same currency, but unfortunately they don’t. 65cents an hour might be fuck all to you and me, but its better than 0 cents don’t you think? I assume you have lived most your life here (or in a western country). All you see in the news (cos you don’t have internet right - no computer?) is the very worst the media can find. Any job is better than no job for millions of people in developing third world nations. Sure they might not be getting the deal of the century for their jobs, but what else are they gonna do with little or no education but have a massive family to feed?
You sound very angry for no reason. Didn’t you win anything at the alleycat? Is that why you’re so pissed off? Im sure if you go into Knog and ask nicely they would give you some lights at a good price. You also seem to be someone who does research before posting - ie, the microsoft link you put up that you found on google. But for your information - Gatorskins are actually made in Germany. Do they ship asians to Gemany to work in the factories for 65 cents and hour?
Do you own a pair of runners? How about the car you drive? Or maybe your watch? Your mobile phone? ( I know its not an iphone cos you don’t agree with where it comes from). Your Haviana thongs? Where do you think those things come from? Some factory in Abbotsford made by a factory worker earning $40 and hour?
Show me that you are 100% supportive of what you believe in what you said in your post and I will happily ride around for a week with just my seatpost and no seat. Deal?
finally… someone to have an e-battle with. To answer your questions:
In my first point i stated i am often a hypocrite. Also you must remember, the validity of a theory or concept isnt affected by the actions of the person who presents such information. So if i say exploiting people is bad, and i have done such a thing before, doesnt make it not bad does it? (i guess i can still take the high ground over you, because i am at least not arguing support for such actions)
In terms of exploitation. I presume you agree the chinese are being exploited? Or dont you? You say that 65cents an hour is fine, because of the relative national wage. However, in this globalised world, the companies paying them are multinationals, such as apple. Who make many 1,000,000,000’s in profit per year. So it isnt like some form of economics in a closed national environment as you stated. So relative to the power (which is your rationale), being the corporation such as apple or say knog, it is a very extreme case of exploitation.
I am angry because people are happy for people to be treated like shit and for high levels of environmental degradation. And at the same time do this under the vale of rational denial.
I was using the gatorskin analogy, to show how relative to global economics the chinese are getting exploited. Check my first post again where i stated i bought german tyres over thailand tyres.
Also primitivism does appeal to me.
And to you and generally sanesteben. I see economics as more systems of authority. Just because you are born into a system, doesnt mean it is a workable system. Cognitive dissonance anyone?
As a slightly absurd aside, i was talking to the Holstar rep the other day at work. He said the guy who laces all their wheels is this old retired guy who earns three dollars a wheel. I must have looked shocked because he went on to argue, because he laces ten an hour, he actually makes quite a good wage.
I kinda nodded dumbly, but later realised what a shit argument it is. If an accountant does tax returns really quickly, does he lessen the amount he does them for? I assume, instead, he just makes more money.
Perhaps some would argue that is fair, but to me it seems as if that old guy is being exploited, despite the rep’s insistence that he enjoys sitting there watching telly lacing wheels all day.
E-Battle was so 5 years ago. I prefer ‘heated discussion’…
I absolutely get where you’re coming from DXS. I guess the main thing that got me was the generalisation of the term ‘exploitation’.
I base my opinions on what I have seen with my own eyes. There is a village behind the suburb where I grew up in Malaysia. Population maybe 20 - 30,000 people. Then maybe 15 years ago, a major sporting (global) company opened a clothing factory nearby to produce product for export. Many of the workers employed by them come from this village.
Since then, the village community has gone through major changes. Most of the kids have been able to stay in school and more than a handful have had successful sporting careers due to their parents being able to afford to keep their children doing what they love. I know for a fact that the factory looks after their workers and have introduced health cover benefits and also have regular family type social events for the employees. A couple of generations have worked there now.
In said company opening their factory and offering job opportunities - is that exploitation? Are the people worse off by accepting next to nothing wage? At the end of the day, if you were getting paid peanuts, why are you doing it? Isn’t your time better spent looking for something that pays more or that you enjoy?
I don’t dispute the fact that there are heaps of sweat shops that are backed by major corporations, that have severe working conditions from pay to workplace safety - but just because there are a few bad eggs in the basket, doesn’t mean you throw ALL the eggs away.
How do we then fix this problem? You say boycotting the big companies. How do you do that while you’re still a ‘hypocrite’ as you mentioned?
One needs not only to ‘talk the talk’, but also be able to ‘walk the walk’, in order to justify being upset over this situation. Otherwise you’re part of the problem like the rest of us…?
If apple makes billions of profit per year, and the chinaman makes 65cents an hour. Then obviously the amount of money the chinaman makes for apple by working for them for an hour, is a lot more than he gets paid for that hour. Obviously he doesnt have the power to receive that true ammount, and is therefore exploited (apple uses their power to take advantage of the chinamans desperate circumstance).
‘worse off’ is subjective, but i know what you are saying. It is like if BP with their oil spill, if they reduced the amount of the leak by one litre less per day. Would you then say their actions are good, because what it is now is better than it was before? No ofcourse not, it is still very bad. Same goes for the wage of 65cents, it isnt good, because it isnt 0.
And you ask, if it is all so bad, why would people even work for them… Well, the system we have now is enforced. What i mean by this, is if you want to life you have to be part of this economic system. Just say i wanted to live free from the system. How would i do it… basically i cant. For example, i could go into the bush, plant some fruit trees and live off rain water. But then, the authorities would come, and say, you cant live in this forest, you dont own the land here, you cant plant that fruit tree. And if you would say to the police, no, i think i will continue living here. They will use violence and lock your hands together and put you in a cell. So if you want to live in this world, you need to be part of the system, if you want to be free, you will be controlled via violence from authorities to put you bad in line. And as you know, the rural chinaman now has to go work in a factory as the country has become industrialized. So if you are forced to be in the system, and all you can get is 65cents, then you have to take it.
But in the same vein, if there are a few bad eggs in the basket, doesn’t mean you eat ALL the eggs.
As i said, i am trying to be a conscious consumer (there are other actions i am taking too), ie USA straps, german tyres, aussie frame etc. But fuck consumerism.
I am also bitching to people on a forum, so i am sure that is making change. I guess my point is, for people to stop rationalizing it. Like you can say, hey, knog, it sucks you get your shit made in china, but everyone does it, so i guess it is cool. Or you can say, fuck you knog, stop being a bunch of assholes. And i presume one mentality will result in a more moral outcome than the other.
If yor saying you would buy an austrlian made frame over a volume thrasher or say a 14 bike co frame. providing it was built to quality and is competitivly priced, i will hold you to that.
