Pursuit Frame ID

I just picked up a pursuit frame from someone who had no clue on ebay (called the BB a spinny thing)

Does anyone think they may be able to point me in the right direction regarding what it actually is??

it came with a campagnolo Headset and BB, is very light (if I actually had decent scales i’d weigh it) it is also equipped with a 650C road fork that has had its brake hole filled

I’m contemplating building it up with a 700c fork until I can find myself a 650C HED 3 :evil:

Awsome I was bidding on this one too. Got no idea what it is apart from cool.

the keel suggests it’s likely to have been one of the frames built by geoff scott for the AIS.

i wanted that thing; i’m jealous.

I’d agree … it’s got AIS written all over it. Problem is there were a few builders over the years and they’re not strong on leaving clues or marks to decipher who built what. Geoff Scott is a likely candidate.

as for front wheel, buy this: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120476368296&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

I’ve been told, and has held true on all the Gefscos I’ve seen: Geoff Scott files the end of the joining tabs of the track ends into points.

Also the on the tab that joins to the seat stays, which aren’t visible here.

Also look for heavy filing marks around the same area, he was (is) a big man and liked a drink whilst building too.

When viewed from above the tabs have definitely been filed to points

That may be true … but so do about 100 other builders. Needs more ID clues before the owner goes slapping on Gefsco stickers :wink:

I note the “is” above: you know his whereabouts these days? I’ve heard some interesting rumours I’d like to verify.

This would be a problem if the AIS has had over 100 builders, just adding info to reduce the canididate pool.

Anyway, as Abodigital alluded to, I’d be hoping it wasn’t a Gefsco… IMO his reputation isn’t entirely deserved:

With regard to finishing on the the dropout tabs … yes, it does narrow it down some. This is just one way to show proper finishing but as yet it hasn’t been narrowed down that it is an AIS frame (although it’s quite likely). I’d still keep looking for other signatures. I’d compare it with a Brian Hayes frames as he was probably more likely to build a frame in this style/era.

The comment about the file marks and heavy drinking means nothing. Especially without quoting the source, context and validity of such comments. To be contrary I think Geoff is quite an interesting and eccentric cat. :sunglasses:

so I’m gonna start a little ranting :evil: … For you to opine that you’d prefer to not have a Geoff Scott built frame because of one anecdotal story that has been regurgitated without historical perspective or fair scrutiny is rather feeble and myopic.

Here’s a few scenario’s and opposing conjecture that might offer wider perspective.

I have seen a fair few Gefsco frames and they all stood out a mile whilst the the Clamont by Geoff Scott were for the most pretty ordinary (and only slightly more expensive than imported Asian rubbish which was vastly inferior). They were just a series of frames made to a price and certainly not indicative of Geoff’s talents. The Gefsco I owned and rode was outstanding. As good as anything from Europe … in many respects even better.

That Clamont could have been painted and decaled by accident. It happened fairly often with outsourced paint shops - even today … bare frames do tend to look very similar.

Maybe Clamont Cyclery were shafting Geoff. They could have made a deal and shook on it and Geoff perhaps realized that Clamont didn’t stick to their side of the deal, or were slow to pay. That happened often. Maybe they were cashing in on Geoff’s name and were effectively paying fuck all for it … that happens in so many fields.

Maybe Geoff got shitty because he was a well known name and his wife was on his because she still had to catch the bus to the shops, that they never saw any money even though he was working his ass off and that she begged him to get a real job. No Aussie frame builder ever made a million bucks, yet plenty of shops and distributors made bank and are still doing so.Anyone here ever though “fuck this, what’s in it for me?”.

And to be fair most Clarence St. customers from this era were themselves posh cunts with no idea. The shop was staff by arrogant, elitist turkeys and their customers were mostly the same or at least propagated such attitudes.

None of us were there and can verify just what happened for that particular bike. I’d sooner lay blame at Clarence St. and suspect they were knowingly shafting their customers and laying blame on “that bastard” framebuilder. It’s not like they’d admit their own fault.

Maybe Geoff Scott was difficult, or had a temper or told a few people to fuck off and created a bad reputation. So what? Most artistic and talented people I know are difficult people. Passion, drive and ego often result in brilliance and beauty and creativity. I have a frame that was made for Jim Bundy by a fellow called Bernie Debus in the late 40’s. They met whilst working at Smith Sons & Rees (Sydney) where many frames for different makers were manufactured (including Malvern Star). By Jim’s own words Debus was an alcoholic, untrustworthy, lazy and impossibly arrogant. Jim actually said he was a cunt. Yet Jim attests that Debus was easily the most talented builder he’d ever seen. Sublime skills aside he also pioneered new methods of manufacturing and his frames were afar above anything being produced at the time locally and maybe even abroad. A true artist in a sea of glorified pipe fitters.

Talent isn’t the proclivity of those who are well loved or resoundingly spoken high of by all and sundry. Japanese collectors don’t give a fuck about Picasso’s personal reputation, Van Gogh was anything but amiable and even Damien Hirst earns a packet for being a prick.

It’s always been the way for us Aussie’s to go all gaga and become sycophants about European frames when our own Aussie builders were just as good, maybe better. We bought the hype. We all dazzled about frames from afar made by a sub-contactor when we wouldn’t even pay close to half as much for a locally frame made by a man with the same name as that on the down tube. Someone who invested much time and love to make something that really was special but it didn’t have cache and wasn’t exotic enough :roll:

Local framebuilders for the most had to make frames to a price, which results in a lot of workmanlike and undistinct frames. On the occasion they were allowed to let loose or were supported by a customer who recognized their talents they made some truly incredible frames. Keep in mind they had nowhere near the buying power or production capabilities that some Euro shops had and that made it almost impossible to compete against on a price basis. We should really herald our local framebuilders a lot more than we do.

I know of a bike shop in NYC which has a Kenevans hanging from the roof - the shop owner will never part with it. A mate of mine rides his Gefsco in Texas more than any other bike in his stable and that includes bikes most here would dream of owning with names that all end in vowels. Another in Cali can’t believe he bought his Paconi for the same price as a standard Taiwanese made, bike shop fodder produced in the thousands. Get my drift :?

Australians became Olympic champions and world record holders riding these bikes made by Aussie builders. That mightn’t signify anything else except to say that our local framebuilders at least held their own and that our riders were at least equipped to succeed. Think when next you buy a frame … whether it means a lot to have the right unobtanium “brand” or whether it means something to support and foster local framebuilders and keep an art alive and part of our culture. It’s fair to say when you bought a frame built by Geoff or Ken or Jim that is was built by them unlike that frame Ernesto has his signature on, but has never even seen … it’s owner foolishly thinks it retains some certain mystique because the God of framebuilding crafted it by hand.

Buy a frame made by someone you actually know and don’t lay much weight from one opinion or interweb rumour. There’s good framebuilders still building in Oz. Those still doing so and those from that past should all be our heroes :mrgreen: … unless we recognize this we will lose that part of Aussie cycling culture/tradition. Our own distinct soul.

So I’ve got a little sidetracked in my rant. And SanEsteban this isn’t about bugging you as I know you’re a cool cat but I just thought to clear some air and put some positive thoughts out there to combat other opinions and what might end up as misinformation in what is a fairly fragmented and divisive scene. I just wanted to offer my opinion and say that I’d be proud to own a Geoff Scott frame. He was quite a talent, right up there with the best in terms of his craft and one of our own :wink:

just some of my opiniosn … I got lots of them :lol:

this thread got very good.

the above essay gets an H1.

I’m not bugged. And, for the record, I’m a big fan of Aussie made frames: all the steel bikes I’ve called mine are Australian: Bundy, Gefsco and Hillman. (The Miyata is my GFs :-))

I’m not, and I’m sure Abodigital isn’t making up shit just for the sake of it. But for reference, Peter at Star - he’s seen more Gefscos than anyone I know - has the opinion that Geoff Scott was ‘heavy handed’.

So, out of all the builders the AIS has had - because this is the set of builders we are talking about - you don’t have a least favourite? This would be a little odd for someone with so many opinions. :smiley:

Thanks for sticking up for the Aussies.

Spirito, are you Geoff Scott? :stuck_out_tongue: Or do you know where he is?

aussie steal is awesome ( im a kiwi ) i’ve got a fine piece of mid 90’s aussie track racing history
i’ve spoken to the builder and he’s a great old dude who’s still making frames for those that have the time and the money…
if i wanted a custom built frame i’d consider given him a call cause his workmanship is outstanding…

you can’t fault aussie iron.

spirito if Abodigital has an opinion about the craftsman ship or the man him self then knowing him as well as i do i’d say it’s very well founded…

Cool, Peter’s opinion counts for a lot. I just think it’s best to balance out opinions from different sources before drawing conclusion.

File marks :? My Bundy has file marks and a poor level of finishing. But I know it was made for a friend of Jim’s which meant it was for very little money and he was usually making 2 or 3 frames a day rather than spending 3 days on one frame. More importantly, at that time his son Peter in his mid-teens was supposed to be in charge of cleaning up the lugs and finishing them as a part of his chores prior to paint/chrome. Peter was a big headed dude more keen on showing off to chicks and didn’t care much for the boring finishing stuff he was assigned. I laugh about the file marks with Peter and I wouldn’t pass on the Bundy frame for all the money in the world. It’s now mine and it holds a special place in my heart warts and all.

It’s very cool you hold Aussie framebuilders up high. And respect for Miyata’s too.

If a bike is a tool it’d be foolhardy of me to dismiss any of the builders contracted by the AIS. I was a less than stellar competitive cyclist and I wouldn’t really know how to evaluate the builders in that regard but as an enthusiast who has owned many bikes and undertaken many restorations where I need to fix and align and tweak frames as I have to plainly say that the Gefsco frames I’ve seen both finished and raw were all of a high standard.

More than anything I’m old(er) :smiley: … and I was one of those who whilst not exactly poo-poo’ing Aussie builders did develop serious Euro lust where my judgement was clouded. If anything, I’m here to say I was wrong and knowing what I now know (as well as how much it’s cost me) I will be the first to say most big name European production bikes aren’t all that special and our own builders deserved more recognition than they got. Better finished … yes, better bikes … no. Call it guilt, or hindsight or whatever.

No, I’m not Geoff :stuck_out_tongue: … but I’m following in his tradition out of respect and sincere appreciation for his (and others) craft (with more than a little ambition of my own) :wink:

I’ll try to chase up some pics of Gefsco’s I have on another computer somewhere. Hopefully I have some pics of a Geoff Scott funny bike from the early 80’s that was in the Canberra Bicycle Museum. Serious drool material, out sight imagination and it would have taken a level of skill that even current framebuilding superstars would find tricky to reproduce today.

Otherwise, never met him, don’t know him. I heard he had some connections … if I met him I’d tell him I admire his bikebuilding talents and also ask him if he could help me score some gear :stuck_out_tongue:

Rad, I seem to have stumbled upon some contention: its not going to stop me from riding and enjoying this bike (unless it explodes when I try to ride it) but certainly makes for some interesting reading.

Regarding file marks and finishing, the finish appears to be smooth BUT the frame is painted with a rather thick layer of glossy sparkly blue paint which could be obscuring any imperfections

That’s all cool too. I responded not to argue against Abodigital (he knows a lot of stuff and deserves cred./respect too) but to offer a different voice and a better balanced argument. The new kids on the blocks who are trying to make sense of all this history and perspective deserve as much info they can get so they don’t pass up on local treasures. They’re the future and after we have all gone, some of the bikes we’re talking about will still be ridden and enjoyed and they’ll know something about them.

That’s often true and normal. It won’t affect the function or ride of the bike though. :wink:

By the way … nice score !!!

Keep searching, glean as much info as you can and make it knwon to others as your now the custodian of this little and quite wacky historical slice of bike history. Funny bikes was kinda like the 80’s … hard to explain (you had to be there) but endlessly intriguing :smiley:

found 'em !!!

Not very good pics, sorry. But a little peek at what Geoff Scott could do when he was given reign. The red bike was probably late 70’s and boy was it tight. Track style tight/upright. The pictures don’t convey very well the level of perfection and crisp detail in every aspect. Sadly the repaint was too thick.

The grey funny bike was at the now gone :cry: Canberra Bicycle Museum
Sorry for the bad pics but there wasn’t much light in there and I was in a hurry to snap some pics of the astounding collection of bikes. Ignore the Bob Hines and Malvern decals … it is a Geoff Scott for certain and quite an interesting bike me thinks.