# The Wheel Building Thread
**URL:** https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077
**Category:** Help
**Created:** [May 4, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077 "2011-05-04T03:56:29Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@PiledHigher](https://fixed.org.au/u/PiledHigher)
#### Post date: [May 5, 2011, 4:26am UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/21 "2011-05-05T04:26:22Z")
> [@Blakey](#):
>
> There’s a nice writeup from Commuter Cycles here:
> [Wheel Building | Commuter Cycles](http://commutercycles.com.au/news/2010/hand-built-wheels/)
>
> They also have a sweet jig for speeding lacing:
> [](http://www.flickr.com/photos/commutercycles/5168435986/)
> [Wheel Building Jig](http://www.flickr.com/photos/commutercycles/5168435986/) by [Commuter Cycles](http://www.flickr.com/people/commutercycles/), on Flickr
I thought it was a rim based coffee table!
---
### Author:  [@Tally](https://fixed.org.au/u/Tally)
#### Post date: [May 5, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/22 "2011-05-05T04:52:22Z")
Great thread - liked the commuter article as well.
What’s the best site for spoke length calculations. And how do you calculate spoke length when building a track rear.
I’ve got an old Normandy flip flop hub (high flange, 36 hole) i was going to lace into a Rigida DP 18 rim i picked up but all the spoke calculators i’ve used give the spoke lengths for a geared rear.
Cheers
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### Author:  [@AL9000](https://fixed.org.au/u/AL9000)
#### Post date: [May 5, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/23 "2011-05-05T05:30:54Z")
> [@Tally](#):
>
> Great thread - liked the commuter article as well.
> What’s the best site for spoke length calculations. And how do you calculate spoke length when building a track rear.
> I’ve got an old Normandy flip flop hub (high flange, 36 hole) i was going to lace into a Rigida DP 18 rim i picked up but all the spoke calculators i’ve used give the spoke lengths for a geared rear.
> Cheers
Google “spocalc” use the spreadsheet, if your hub isn’t there, just measure the hub as directed and use those numbers. Easy peasy.
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### Author:  [@horse](https://fixed.org.au/u/horse)
#### Post date: [May 5, 2011, 5:41am UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/24 "2011-05-05T05:41:58Z")
I recently laced up a 650c super aero and the biggest problem I had at start was how to not drop nipples into the dish area. After looking through my cupboards I found a box of those round bamboo toothpicks. if i snapped off the sharp tip, i was left with just enough of a taper that allowed me to stab into the back of the nipple, and then through the spoke hole. The bamboo grips enough that you can do a few turns before the spoke actually comes in contact with bamboo. Tug the toothpick out and repeat.
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### Author:  [@system](https://fixed.org.au/u/system)
#### Post date: [May 5, 2011, 6:07am UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/25 "2011-05-05T06:07:09Z")
or use an old spoke, wind it in a few turns then drop into the hole, works pretty good.
haha not that i build wheels, i can true a wheel and replace a broken spoke 🙂
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### Author:  [@horse](https://fixed.org.au/u/horse)
#### Post date: [May 5, 2011, 6:26am UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/26 "2011-05-05T06:26:18Z")
yeah but that means you have to spin the nipple on, then unwind, using a toothpick doesn’t require that, and if you have some food stuck in your teeth you can pick it out! 😛
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### Author:  [@system](https://fixed.org.au/u/system)
#### Post date: [May 5, 2011, 6:36am UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/27 "2011-05-05T06:36:25Z")
haha touché
my wheel build is closer to becoming a reality…
found a set of unused 1.38 edge tubs… i have a bit of a thing for the 38s… very nice rims…
also the owner of fairwheel bikes is sorting me out a new ligreo hub when they get made to replace the one i killed…
might get him to throw a set of extralite SP series hubs in the box while he’s at it!! hmmm
for the record my carbon wheels aren’t for racing crits or hill climbs ( i work 99% of all the weekends in a year so no dice ) they are for sunny morning outings in Sydney’s eastern suburbs 😉
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### Author:  [@P\_N20](https://fixed.org.au/u/P_N20)
#### Post date: [May 5, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/28 "2011-05-05T14:03:19Z")
> [@Tally](#):
>
> And how do you calculate spoke length when building a track rear.
I used [this](http://www.bikeschool.com/tools/spoke-length-calculator) one. Tells you how to take the measurements to plug in to the calculator. It was a lot simpler than other calculators I encountered, and to quote Sheldon, “the length is not super-critical.”
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### Author:  [@P\_N20](https://fixed.org.au/u/P_N20)
#### Post date: [May 5, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/29 "2011-05-05T14:16:14Z")
> [@Dave\_S](#):
>
> It’s often said that 3L3T shouldn’t be used on a rear wheel. Have you noticed any issues while riding it?
>
> I’d predict that it could cause vibrations in the drivetrain as the wheel moves, but I don’t know if these would be significant enough to be noticeable. (The reason being that as the wheel rotates, the load on the bottom spokes is reduced. In a 3L3T wheel, this means you are constantly going from having a group of leading spokes unloaded, to a group of trailing spokes unloaded, and back, causing the hub to oscillate back and forth during movement.)
I would be interested to see any articles regarding this. I did a reasonable amount of research before attempting the 3L3T pattern and none mentioned it shouldn’t be used for the rear. Your explanation makes sense, but that would apply to the front as well, wouldn’t it? (Obviously less weight up front.)
My drivetrain is noisy, and when I read your post I thought “oh shit, that’s the reason!” But I hung up my bike last night and turned the cranks, and it is still noisy without any load on the wheels.
Admittedly, I haven’t really put this bike through its paces as yet. But on the few short rides I’ve been on I didn’t get any sense of vibrations or oscillating in the rear.
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### Author:  [@Tally](https://fixed.org.au/u/Tally)
#### Post date: [May 5, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/30 "2011-05-05T14:25:07Z")
Thanks for the links.
Using spocacl i get lengths of 293.6 and 291.6. Considering i’m not going to dish for 5 speed but for fixed, can i just make them 292.6 and centre the hub…
On the other calculator i got 276.4… but i may have entered the hub centre to flange centre incorrectly…
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### Author:  [@Aaron](https://fixed.org.au/u/Aaron)
#### Post date: [May 5, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/31 "2011-05-05T15:00:06Z")
Most online spoke calculators can have the data entered without allowing for dishing so I’m unsure what you mean.
It’s pretty much accepted that 1-2mm out (too long or too short) wil be useable for building wheels but I always aim for the perfect length.
I usually do my calculations 3-4 times using different online calulators and get the most consistent length
Remember that some bike shops are only stocked with even length spokes and others odd.
I’ve found it is more like some states having even and other states having odd.
As spokes are pretty expensive I like to get it right the first time, every time.
BTW 15 guage spokes are almost impossible to find.
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### Author:  [@Aaron](https://fixed.org.au/u/Aaron)
#### Post date: [May 5, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/32 "2011-05-05T18:11:19Z")
I’ve enjoyed the ‘buying experience’ when ordering spokes online from these guys and gals
[Vintage Bicycle Rebuilds Shop, parts & accessories for 27" step throughs, mens racer bikes.](http://www.vintagebicyclerebuilds.net.au/)
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### Author:  [@P\_N20](https://fixed.org.au/u/P_N20)
#### Post date: [May 5, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/33 "2011-05-05T18:17:15Z")
The Art Of Wheelbuilding by Gerd Schraner is available [here](Gerd Schraner).
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### Author:  [@el\_Brado](https://fixed.org.au/u/el_Brado)
#### Post date: [May 6, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/34 "2011-05-06T20:30:20Z")
I’ve never understood why you need a dishing tool.
You can just keep flipping the wheel on a truing stand until the rim is centered.
Am I missing something doing it this way?
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### Author:  [@tomacropod](https://fixed.org.au/u/tomacropod)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/35 "2011-05-07T04:43:50Z")
> [@el\_Brado](#):
>
> I’ve never understood why you need a dishing tool.
>
> You can just keep flipping the wheel on a truing stand until the rim is centered.
>
> Am I missing something doing it this way?
You’re missing nothing at all, IF you have a sturdy truing stand which brings the wheel back to a consistent point. Some shift around each time you clamp/unclamp the wheel.
I have a dishing tool now, it allows for greater accuracy of dish, but really, +/- 1mm is close enough.
- Joel
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### Author:  [@J.K.L.P](https://fixed.org.au/u/J.K.L.P)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/36 "2011-05-10T18:11:00Z")
My Circus Monkey hubs turned up today and i’ve got to say im very impressed. Just a couple of quick things to note on them are:
They are light, very light.
Freewheel pawls are a little dry out of the box.
The rear hub is completely tool free and literally pulls apart by hand.
The machining on the hubs is very clean.
Front hub spoke holes are machine slotted for bladed spokes.
Seems to be a fair amount of seal drag on them which will hopefully free up a little over time.
The bearings are smooooooth.
So far these have far exceeded my expectations for $140 including skewers (which are very nice too). Now to get measuring and order some spokes while i wait for my rims.
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### Author:  [@system](https://fixed.org.au/u/system)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/37 "2011-05-10T18:19:36Z")
wheel building is hard. ☹
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### Author:  [@thomasface](https://fixed.org.au/u/thomasface)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/38 "2011-05-10T18:23:28Z")
^ thanks for the valuable insight
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### Author:  [@system](https://fixed.org.au/u/system)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/39 "2011-05-10T18:24:14Z")
I’m here to answer the hard questions.
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### Author:  [@system](https://fixed.org.au/u/system)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2011, 6:19am UTC](https://fixed.org.au/t/the-wheel-building-thread/51077/40 "2011-05-12T06:19:44Z")
Nice, I have negotated a set of built up but unsed edge 2.38 rims
Just waiting for the SP hubs to come into stock on fairwheelbikes
Looking forward to going tubular.
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